học ngành Luật(law) ở Mỹ

[trinhhongdangmindmaster]

Chào mấy anh chị.
Em hiện chỉ mới kết thúc năm học lớp 10 ở trường Phổ thông năng khiếu đại học quốc gia thành phố Hồ Chí Minh, nhưng ước mơ du học tại đất Hoan Kỳ của em đã có từ lâu, nên em muốn có sự chuẩn bị đầy đủ và hoàn hảo nhất. Mong được các anh chị giúp đỡ nhiều.
Câu hỏi đầu tiên em muốn đưa ra, là do sở thích, và có thể là do cả sở trường của em nữa, em muốn sau này mình sẽ làm 1 luật sư(lawyer or attourney of law). Các anh chị có biết trường nào tại Hoa Kỳ mạnh về ngành Luật và có cho HB (granted hoặc 85% trở lên) thì giới thiệu cho em nha.
Cảm ơn các anh chị nhiều lắm .

[khang]

Dang - you want to practise Law in VN or US? If you want to work as as a lawyer in VN, are you sure to want to learn American law?

Second, Law schools are graduate school in the US. You attend 4 years of college (means Dai Hoc, NOT Cao Dang) and then apply to Law school. If you want to go to a good Law school, then entering a good college certainly helps.

[nmvu]

I used to have the same concern with Dang.

I've heard that Law schools in general do not offer Financial Aid, esp to int'l students because like Medical schools, Law Schools have high-priced tuitions and study materials are costly too.

Also, upon graduation from an American Law school, can we practice law in Viet Nam like American lawyers in VN? Is there any possibility we can find a job in this field to work in the States? (which is obviously hard, because we have to beat other American citizens... and law is itself a competitive field.?)

Can anybody cite examples of those Vietnamese students studying Law in grad schools / Pre-Law in undergrad schools in the US?

NMV.

[gourmet_dogmeat]

Lawyers in the States, before they can practice law, have to pass the bar exam (or the bar for short.) Each state in the US has a different bar exam, administered by that state's bar association. Bar exams, depending on what state you're applying to, can be hard or very hard.
Yes, foreign nationals can practice law in the States, but I believe they can only take the bar in New York and California (which are two of the most difficult states.)
I know of several individuals who are attending law schools in the US right now, but most of them, because they didn't study as an undergrad here in the US and often was already practicing before going to Law school here, opted for the LLM program (Master of Law I think) in lieu of the more popular JD program (Juris Doctor.)

Yes, law school is a very very demanding environment and given the competitive market at the moment, having a JD or an LLM even from a good law school is no guarantee for a job. You have to stand out, which makes law school even more difficult.

It is true, also, that funding for law school from the school itself is very limited albeit not entirely zero. Normally ppl look for fundings from outside scholarsip sources.

Given all these obstacles, judging from what I've heard, law school is a precious experience and an excellent investment. Now that Vietnam is opening up and will soon have a lot of dealings with the States, a knowledge of the American legal system will in my belief prove much much beneficial and will be well sought after.

[an nhu]

học đại học ở vn rui` ap đh luật của mỹ dc ko ạ? hay m` fải học đại học 4 năm của mỹ rui` mới đc ap law school ?

[jade3112]

1- You have to take LSAT (Law School Admission Test) in order to apply for law school. It may not matter where you study undergrad.
2- Law schools generally do NOT offer financial aid, even for U.S. citizens. So imagine you'll have to pay all tuitions (23k to 46k)+fees+ housing+food+air ticket. The only type of aid for both international and American is loan, which requires a U.S. citizen to cosign if you're international student.
3- In states where foreign students are allowed to take bar exams, law schools there are the most prestigious ones: Cornell, Standford, NYU, Columbia. Admission to these schools are extremely tough for even 3.9/4.0 GPA (roughly 9.75/10.0 in Vietnamese GPA) U.S. college students.
4- You have to be extremely fluent in English (reading comprehension + writing) in order to study law. Most of the time, law students spend their time to read and discuss cases which may cost you about 10-14hrs/ day to sit your ass in the library. Language in cases is formal, traditional, and judicial English, which even Americans have to struggle with reading and understanding it.
Plus, if your written English is just ok, forget about law school. My friend who is a 20 y.o. Korean American (born in Korea, live in America since 12) said that basically her written statement of position paper was instantly rejected by her law professor. He rudely said the language of the paper was "just horrible".
5. In the first year curriculum, law students normally have to study Contracts, Civils, and Torts. Most of them are based on common law (old law from UK), state law, and federal law. All of them are basically not applicable in Vietnam.

So, consider it carefully.

[linkin]

In my humble opinion, you get more chance to Law school if you specialize in highly technical field, for example: Construction law, Tech-Patent law ... instead of Business Law or Civil Law not because one is harder than the other but solely because you have less competition.

A professor of mine did his PhD before going to Law school and now has a very influential reputation in both engineering and jurisdictional field. In exchange for all the harsh selections that Ngọc mentioned, Law school offers a chance for an individual to not only increase his/her net-worth but also professional influence.

So, go for it but take time to prepare and be competitive.

[musketeerlady]

Well... it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that a 3.9-4.0 GPA is needed for law school. Certainly the higher GPA, the better chance you have. To get a feel of the stats needed, aspiring applicants should check out the 25th-75th percentile scores of law school ranking here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html. The top 14 schools are considered the best schools in the country, with the top 3 (Yale-Harvard-Stanford) being more revered than the rest.

By the way, Top Law Schools is like VietAbroader for law school applicants. I'm applying this year, and have learned much from the information gleaned there.

Once my cycle is over (i.e. more time), I will post more detailed about the admission process. Generally, the most important criteria are undergraduate GPA and LSAT score. The LSAT is a hard test, but manageable if you put time into studying. I highly recommend the PowerScore Bibles as study aid: http://www.powerscore.com/content_publications.cfm

Regarding financial aid, law schools do provide merit-based (with the exception of HYS) and need-based aids. Most schools also have LRAP (loan repayment assistant programs), where loans are forgiven if graduates commit to public interest jobs for a certain number of years.

So the bottom line is, if there is a will there is a way :-) Law school is a giant investment, both intellectually and financially, but if you really want to be a lawyer then it shouldn't deter you from at least trying.

To An Nhu: if you already have a law degree in VN, a popular option is to get an LLM (master of law) in the US. The degree is only 1 year. After that, you are eligible to take the bar exam (at least in New York) and if pass, can practice law in that particular state.

[linkin]

Nice insight. Wish you all the luck Ms Admin . Im in preparation to apply in 3 years so I look forward to hearing your experience.

[jade3112]

Just FYI that I know 1 Vietnamese student (Amser \:d/) who is studying law at Cornell Law School. She was an undergrad from Harvard, though... so I think it's possible to get aid here. However, I do think it's necessary to give people tough facts so that they think seriously. If you think you can get fin aid or certain that you can stay and work legally after graduation in the States (with nice paychecks ), then go ahead.

3.8 or even 3.9/4.0 - I don't think really is a high criterion (although not a clear cut-off) for students who want aid. Trang quoted a souce but it was 25th-75th percentile, out of only about 200-300 enrolled new students per year...and not out of the applicant pools...
If you really can take loan and offered loan as a type of aid (only if loan is forgiven after grad, *but then how can you get a public-interest job that sponsors your immigration??*), then seriously even 3.5 ( mostly B+/A-) can work out just fine ('bitches can go to law school and have fun', quoted my housemate ).

Sorry off-topic, if you (provided you have sponsorship or green card) have a student loan that have to be paid back monthly after graduation, be careful. Remember that student loan payments may affect your credit score (but still, a professional degree like JD helps credit-worthiness). If you intend to marry and buy a house right after graduate (26-28 y.o.), this type of long term loan will increase your long-term loan amount --> affecting the debt to earning ratio---> you and your spouse may not be eligible for some nice traditional mortgage.

Anyway, Linkin and Trang, if you guys consider applying for Cornell Law School, I can give you the Vietnamese student's contact as well as my law professor's contact info (B.S. and J.D. both from Cornell). My housemate is also a girl from Mongolia studying international law at Cornell (but she has green card and family in the U.S. though) may help, too.

[TamVo91]

Hey An Nhu, there are some students after graduating from universities in Vietnam (majoring in laws) going to US law schools to seek a LL.M. degree, mostly via the Fulbright program. LSAT is NOT required for admission to LLM program. Here are the FAQs about the LL.M. in American Law for Foreign Lawyers http://www.law.fsu.edu/academic_prog...images/faq.pdf. After that, as chị Trang said, you are eligible to take the bar exam in New York and if pass, can practice law in that NY state.

I am doing Mock Trial at my school and it is so much fun. But going to law school is such an enormous investment of time and money that makes me pause. I look forward to hearing your experience too, chị Trang. Best wishes to you.

[musketeerlady]

I'ms so glad to see there is heightened interest in law school in the US. So far I only know of 2 Vnmese students in law school here, both at Cornell: chị Nhung (who is the same person Ngọc mentioned I think) and Hải (Grinnell). They seem to be enjoying their experience thus far. I was offered admission to Cornell Law recently, and hope to meet up with them when I go visit the school. Cornell is also one school that offers rather generous merit-aid through their invitation-only Dean's Scholarship.

Because law school is known to be so number-based, the admission result is relatively more predictable than soft-based degree like MBA. For example, you can check out the application pool for Cornell here: http://cornell.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0809/

Even more fun, you can predict the outcomes of your law school cycle here: http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp...e-Programs.htm Of course, take this with the grain of salt since LSP is based on Law School Number data, which is self-reporting and did not preempt those who reported fake numbers. It also calculates your chance based on numbers alone, and not soft factors such as leadership, work experience etc. Some schools are known to focus more on such criteria, starting with the infamous Yale and Berkeley.

Ngọc: the 25th-75th percentile is indeed the student pool of Cornell, and is what applicants should compare themselves too. If an applicant has numbers within this range, it's likely that he/she will be accepted. If an applicant has much better numbers, chances are they will get into higher ranked schools, and will go there. As you might have guessed already, ranking is extremely important for law schools for lengthy reasons that I hope to discuss later. I'm not sure about your point about public interest jobs. There are visas for those who want to work in non-profit sectors. Even if international grads work for biglaw (corporate jobs), green cards take a long time and are only offered to few people who are willing to stick around for years.

Yes, plenty of people go to law school and have fun. But there is honestly little chance of that happening at the higher ranked schools. Reading loads are heavy, and everybody reads and does homework. Most 0L (aspiring 1L, i.e. first year law students) read the entire 1L curriculum before starting school. At the risk of sounding too aggressive, I admit first hand that I am one of those. It's just too much of an investment (especially for international students) not to work hard and take advantage of the rigorous training.

Tam: Thank you :-) I'll be happy to share my experience for the process and answer any question you guys might have.

[nguyenminhhieuh]

So far I only know of 2 Vnmese students in law school here, both at Cornell: chị Nhung (who is the same person Ngọc mentioned I think) and Hải (Grinnell).

Sorry sis for being a bit off-topic: I've heard somewhere (maybe collegeconfidential) that Grinnell graduates with a 3.75 GPA can make it to any law schools in the US. Could you tell me how true this statement is? Thanks

[TamVo91]

I dont know how much truth is in that statement, but any claim with "any", "always" like that seems like a sweeping generalization to me. The idea that all Grinnell grads with GPA higher than 3.75 can get accepted by Yale Law school is quite absurd. Anyway, Grinnell graduates enjoy a high acceptance rate to law school, and they have a good Mock trial team (I have seen better though). So I am sure that it should be a good place to study if you know you are going to law school.

Chị Trang, it was a really impressive achievement. How long has been since you graduated? Do you have financial aid in any form (including loan) at Cornell Law School?

[trinhhongdangmindmaster]

I posted this link about a year ago about some summer programs relating to law. These programs are organized by the Law School Admission Council and the home institutions, so I think all of them should be legitimate. Last summer, I participate in the Florida State Summer Program and it was fantastic. So apply, everyone .
http://vietabroader.org/f/showthread.php?t=7318

[jade3112]

Sorry sis for being a bit off-topic: I've heard somewhere (maybe collegeconfidential) that Grinnell graduates with a 3.75 GPA can make it to any law schools in the US. Could you tell me how true this statement is? Thanks

There is an rule-of-thumb ranking used for students at top tiered schools where there is no official ranking:
3.0 -3.4: top 30%
3.4 -3.6: top 15%
3.6-3.8: top 10%
3.8 and higher: top 5%

With that being said, I guess a GPA of 3.75 is well about top 10%.
Moreover, some schools (Cornell - still debating but posted online, Darthmouth) include median grades on student's transcript (God d*** it!), so grade inflation will reflect somehow.

[musketeerlady]

To Minh Nhật: It's good that you know so early on that you want to study law. You have plenty of time, so definitely try to explore other fields. Based on my own experience, I would also recommend working for a few years, travel, read all the non-law books you want to read before applying to law school. As they often say, time is fleeting but the law will always be there.

To Hiếu: GPA is only one components of many factors for law school decisions. A 3.75 is a healthy grade, and certainly can open many doors IF (emphasis on the "if") accompanied by a healthy LSAT score and a careful application package. If your essay is riddled with spelling mistakes, or you bomb the LSAT, a 3.75 GPA wouldn't get you very far.

To Tâm: I graduated from Bates in 2007, and have been working at a consulting firm for 2.5 years. I haven't settled on a law school yet (it's still early in the cycle), and haven't yet filled out any financial aid form. I certainly hope to get the Dean's Scholarship from Cornell, if only I can finish writing the essay!

[KP]

Three lives linked by call to duty, common tragedy

The sacrifices of Harvard Law graduates who took unconventional paths leave friends and classmates searching for answers about themselves

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...ommon_tragedy/

[namvu]

This Law School business is definitely not my cup of tea but my best friend in college (American, 3.4 GPA Econ/History) just got into law school: despite its low rank, the school admission rate is somewhere between 10%-20%, which I find very high for low-rank schools.

I also did mock trial for a year. Despite its “mock” nature, everyone is extremely motivated. I know many of them has gone to law schools (not top-notch though). There is one thing that I also learned about law through mock trial: if you don’t speak the same languages (as a native speaker) as the rest of competitors, you will have a very tough time. Even though it was just a competition, many wanna-be lawyers gave me crap about my accent and pretended like they did not get what I said.

That’s said, competition to law schools, even the low ranked ones, is definitely not a walk in the park for most students, especially for international students. Anyway, back to work .

[musketeerlady]

From prison to law school, super impressive: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/09/us...o_interstitial

[LoiHuynh]

Mình có một số chia sẻ về việc học LLM tại Mỹ: http://loionlegal.blogspot.com/2011/...at-tai-my.html. Hy vọng rằng có thể giúp ích một phần nào đó cho những ai quan tâm đến ngành luật

[acrosstheuniverse]

First of all, thanks everyone for sharing your experiences regarding Law school. I'm also considering a J.D. program right after graduation but to be honest, everything sounds so daunting at the moment. It just feels like so many risks automatically clings on once you choose this path. First off, most importantly, aid is rare and, from what I gather, only to be awarded to the very best applicants. I have pretty good GPA but LSAT remains a real challenge. And correct me if I'm wrong but not a lot of law schools yearn for international students.
I was wondering if you guys could share a bit more about preparing for the LSAT.

[acrosstheuniverse]

and resources regarding financial aid and scholarships for law school.

[Olien]

Mình bổ sung danh sách các trường có học bổng Luật tại Mỹ để mọi người có thêm nguồn tìm kiếm
http://www.hotcourses.vn/study/inter...tml?frmlid=217